Shaho Amin: Where have the talks to form the upcoming Kurdistan Regional Government reached?

Qubad Talabani: The formation of the new government is a process that perhaps started a bit slow after the elections, but with each meeting, the process became more active, and the topics being discussed have become more serious. I can say with optimism that the steps we have taken have progressed well.

Undoubtedly, we should not forget that in previous years, the conditions between the PUK and KDP were uneasy. Those who have been involved in this issue for a long time, like my honorable brother [and senior PUK member] Mr. Saadi Pira, who is young but has long been involved in this topic, have experienced all the ups and downs. I believe he could testify better than anyone that relations between these two parties were at their worst. The political tensions between the two parties were also at their highest level. It’s only natural that this process takes time and isn’t resolved overnight.

We, along with my honorable brother, [head of the PUK Relations Bureau] Mr. Darbaz Kosrat Rasul, and other comrades, have not come to these talks with the intention of dividing up government positions as we did in the past. We want to ask ourselves [and determine] what partnership truly means.

Shaho Amin: I wanted to ask when the PUK keeps talking about partnership, what aspect of partnership are they referring to?

Qubad Talabani:
We asked this question to our brothers in the KDP as well. For us, partnership means assuming responsibility—first and foremost, participating in the important, strategic decisions. It means being partners in governing and protecting the state. It means being partners, not just participants. There is a difference. If you are only participating in a process, that is different from owning the issue. What we want to prove in this discussion is that, as a governing pillar in the Kurdistan Region, we want to have a more serious and effective role in the tenth cabinet than we had in the past.

Shaho Amin:
What have you reached so far?

Qubad Talabani:
So far, we have worked on [establishing] a vision for governance. We have not discussed the distribution of government positions. Should I repeat it again? We have not discussed the distribution of government positions. We have talked about the mechanism of administration.

Shaho Amin:
Does the mechanism have much left to be decided?

Qubad Talabani:
Yes, yes. We are talking about governance in a region where various internal, regional, and external issues and threats are prevalent. The Kurdistan Region is facing major challenges. Our mechanism must be robust enough to face internal challenges while simultaneously countering global and regional challenges and changes. Some of the topics are very technical and detailed.

Shaho Amin:
On which points have you agreed, and what is still left to agree on?

Qubad Talabani:
I will not tell you.

Shaho Amin:
Why not?

Qubad Talabani:
It’s not because I want to hide it from you, but respectfully, these discussions are taking place between the two sides [PUK and KDP]. Fortunately, we have entered into these discussions in good spirits, and there is a positive atmosphere in our meetings. If you’ve noticed, this might be the first time in the government formation process that we are not revealing things through the media. We are having a serious meeting between two political parties that most of the people of the Kurdistan Region have voted for. This is why we want to rebuild trust and credibility. This can be done when people realize that we are serious. If we reveal all the topics of our meeting and each other’s notes after every session, the credibility will be lost. Then, we may not be able to speak with such sincerity in our meetings with each other.

Shaho Amin: But the people might want to know when the government will be formed. The markets are stalled, work has stopped, and so on.

Qubad Talabani: I would like the government to be formed tomorrow. If it were up to my preferences, we want it to be formed as soon as possible. But it is more urgent for the people that the government be formed with careful consideration, having established the administrative mechanisms so that the cabinet is strong and effective, rather than haphazard due to pressure. We have stopped doing substandard work; the situation cannot handle more of this. We need to form a government in which the roles, responsibilities, and duties of all sides participating in the formation are clearly defined. How will we organize them, and how will we manage this country? This takes time. I will repeat this: the trust that was built between 2006 and 2010, after all the misfortunes we have experienced in the past, has diminished year by year. We must rebuild it.

Shaho Amin: Does the PUK have a veto on anyone from the KDP taking ministerial and top positions in the government, and vice versa, from the KDP towards the PUK?

Qubad Talabani: We have not discussed positions. In the last meeting, we discussed something, and we will provide this information to you. We discussed how the mechanism of appointing government positions will work, not who will take the positions. This is one of the topics we proposed and are currently discussing. Again, instead of talking about positions, we are focusing on the mechanism of position appointments and their distribution. More importantly, I will repeat this, the mechanism for implementing the shared vision that we are now working on drafting is what matters most.

Shaho Amin: In the next cabinet, what will your position be? Deputy Prime Minister, or something else?

Qubad Talabani: Only God knows. This is in God’s hands.

Shaho Amin: But people have plans; they want to know what they need to do.

Qubad Talabani: It’s too early. It’s too early.

Shaho Amin: Can you tell us what the President of the Kurdistan Region, Nechirvan Barzani, and PUK leader Bafel Talabani discussed in Munich during their meeting in mid-February?

Qubad Talabani: As you know, we have a long-standing and strong relationship with our honored brother, Mr. Nechirvan Barzani. I was delighted when I heard that Mr. Nechirvan and Mr. Bafel met in Munich. It’s not unusual for them to meet. I’m sure they discussed various matters, including the situation of the Kurdistan Region and the government formation process. They both agreed that this process must be completed soon and that a strong government should be formed. They discussed the risks from both sides, as well as each side’s expectations. They did not discuss positions; the topics we discuss are much deeper.

Shaho Amin: The KDP claims that the PUK emphasizes establishing a partnership in the government but fails to take accountability and sometimes acts as an opposition. What do you say about this?

Qubad Talabani: We want that mindset to change. If we see ourselves as the owners of the government, we must recognize that we are partners in this government and in the making of strategic decisions—not just the difficult decisions, the ones that upset the people. We must also participate in delivering good news, in rolling out projects, services, initiatives, and developments.

Shaho Amin: What are the mistakes that the KDP and PUK have made in previous agreements that must not be repeated this time?

Qubad Talabani: This is the core of our effort this time. We have reviewed the old agreements between the PUK and KDP. They all have very good elements, but they lack two key things: a mechanism and clear accountability for ensuring that something is done, and if it is not, what the consequences will be. In the end, think of government formation as preparing a contract between two sides. There must be a mechanism that includes a system of penalties, reactions, or accountability if the agreement is not implemented. This is what we are working on this time.

Shaho Amin: They say that the KDP has accepted that the prime minister and his deputy will form the government together, but have not agreed that if the deputy and ministers from the PUK withdraw, the government will be dissolved. What do you say about this?

Qubad Talabani: This is new information, thank you for sharing it. Look, we do not want to enter these negotiations with the intention of withdrawing from the government. That’s a negative outlook. We want to implement what has been agreed upon. So, the question is: what is the mechanism that guarantees this government is a partnership where decisions are made together? If one side shifts away from this, there must be a reaction.

You remember that I did not participate in the meetings of the [KRG’s] Council of Ministers for six to seven months. During that time, we lacked authority. As a result, we were under pressure, with no option. We then sat with [KRG Prime Minister] Mr. Masrour [Barzani], discussed some issues, things moved forward, and I began attending the Council of Ministers meetings again.

We do not want that to be repeated. Our people and our markets do not deserve to suffer because of our personal conflicts. This is why we need a clear mechanism to manage our affairs.

Second, this is more difficult than anything else, which is why we ask for patience from the people of Kurdistan. The PUK and KDP are different parties, with two very different histories, ways of thinking, methods of implementing policies, structures, and support bases. A voter of the KDP is very different from a voter of the PUK. These differences are actually strong points. If we were all the same, then why have two parties? We would’ve all been one party and there would be no issue.

Since we are two different parties, we must find a mechanism that allows us to coexist with our disagreements and not let every disagreement bring everything to a standstill. After all these years—especially the past few years—the trust between us is at a very low point. Trust can be rebuilt over time and through experience, not just words, agreements, or handshakes. A clear mechanism will help us regain trust, which will lead to understanding and sympathy. I would like our friends in the KDP to understand the fears and anxieties of the PUK and the pressure that exists on our streets. We must also understand the expectations that our brothers and sisters in the KDP have. The problems in the Kurdistan Region stem from fear, and a few of them are due to differing policies. It’s not simply that someone says, “I am liberal…”

Shaho Amin: For example, fear of what?

Our history is filled with strife, with attempts to dominate one another, and with getting in each other's way. Blood has been spilled between us, conspiracies, and coup d'états have occurred. These events all leave their marks. So, we must first return to an environment that protects the government and governance from political disputes. Let the PUK and KDP have their political disagreements in parliament, adopt different policies, and try to express their political philosophies through law in their political headquarters, but the government must be protected from politics. The government must not be used as a weapon to settle political scores with one another.

Shaho Amin: So, can people be optimistic that the so-called "Green" and "Yellow" zones will cease to exist? [Despite working together in the KRG, the PUK and KDP have established control over different parts of the Kurdistan Region, often referred to as the "Yellow Zone" and "Green Zone." The KDP is dominant in Erbil and Duhok provinces, while the PUK rules Sulaimani and Halabja.]

I am optimistic that this process is progressing in a healthy way. I am also optimistic about the negotiations that are ongoing so far. I am confident that the points we have agreed on so far can be implemented. What is left, I believe, is room to reach a common understanding.

Erasing the terms "Green" and "Yellow Zones" cannot be accomplished by one cabinet. Perhaps this cabinet can have a more all-encompassing governance so that a decision made in Erbil can be implemented in Garmiyan and an opinion from Sulaimani can be approved in Duhok. However, it is clear that if you look at the previous elections, the population of each party is very strong in one area. That balance will likely remain, and this is not necessarily a bad thing. In the United States, California is always a Democratic state, while other states are consistently Republican. Some states do change, but there’s a general consistency.

Shaho Amin: You often hear that the PUK’s policy with Iraq is different from the KDP’s. What is the main difference here?

I do not know. I do not want to evaluate the KDP’s policy with Baghdad. The PUK believes that the Kurdistan Region’s issues cannot all be resolved in Erbil. When we were able to solidify Kurdish rights in the Iraqi constitution and provide them with a legal and constitutional standing, we did not do it in Erbil or Sulaimani; we did it in Baghdad.

In 2012, after [former Iraqi president and PUK leader] Mam Jalal [Talabani] became ill, and until a few years ago, the position of the Kurds in Baghdad diminished. This weakened the Kurdistan Region. The PUK decided to reverse this. If our standing as a party is strong in Baghdad, it will be strong in Kurdistan as well. The salary issue was not solved in Erbil; it was solved in Baghdad. The other issues that the Kurdistan Region faces, those related to Iraq, are solved in Baghdad. So, we must have a stronger standing at the Iraqi level, and our connections with Baghdad must be stronger. Imagine if the KDP and the PUK both have strong positions in Baghdad, and we work together like we did from 2005 to 2007—no one can stand in our way. If we are divided here, they will tear us apart there.

Shaho Amin: Recently, Mr. Bafel Talabani was in Baghdad, and he said we want the Kurdish parties to run as a unified list in the upcoming Iraqi parliamentary elections in October. Mr. Nechirvan Barzani welcomed this idea. Does the PUK want this to be with the KDP and other Kurdish parties as well?

When Mr. Bafel said all of the parties should be together, it was clear. I believe that he wants a united Kurdish front in Baghdad. This goes back to our will. It is very natural for us to have disagreements on local issues. But on the issue of Kirkuk, there should be no conflict between us. The same goes for the issues of Khanaqin, Shingal (Sinjar), and the Article 140 [disputed] territories as a whole. We must be united. And we are united—if you look at the incident that happened recently with the farmers in Kirkuk, everyone raised their voice in one loud direction, including brothers from Komal [Kurdistan Justice Group] and the [Kurdistan Islamic Union] KIU. For national issues, we can be one. And when we are united, it is extraordinary because we become a strong bloc. When they cannot divide us, no one can defeat us.

Shaho Amin: How does the PUK view the recent regional developments, such as the regime change in Syria, the weakening of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and the reduction of Iran’s influence in the region? The PUK has good relations with Iran, while the KDP has strong ties with Turkey. What is your perspective on these changes?

Qubad Talabani: May I comment on your question? Often, these relations are described in black-and-white terms—that the PUK and Iran have good relations, and the KDP and Turkey have good relations, with the implication that the KDP and Iran have poor relations, and the PUK and Turkey have poor relations. I believe this is too simplistic; the situation is much more nuanced, and everything falls into shades of grey. I would like to remind you of the recent visit by Iranian President [Masoud Pezeshkian] to the Kurdistan Region, as well as the visit of the President of the Kurdistan Region to Iran and the warm reception he received. It's true that he went under the title of the President of the Kurdistan Region, but he is also Mr. Nechirvan Idris Barzani, Deputy Leader of the KDP. The reception he received was not that of someone with whom they [the Iranians] have poor relations.

Nothing in this region is purely black or white; everything is a shade of grey, if you accept my perspective.

Regarding the developments in the region, they will certainly have an impact on Iraq, and perhaps the Kurdistan Region, especially the developments in Syria. The situation in Lebanon may be somewhat distant for us in the Kurdistan Region, but the changes in Syria will undoubtedly affect both Iraq and the Kurdistan Region. However, the situation is still evolving. The events in Syria, and the changes that have taken place there, are not the final outcome. I believe there will be further changes in Syria in the future. Will the situation remain as it is? It is difficult to imagine that Syria’s situation will remain static. I believe outside interference will continue, and Syria will face significant challenges unless they reach a consensus on governance and leadership, ensuring the inclusion of all components of Syrian society.

Shaho Amin: The Syrian foreign ministry was supposed to visit Iraq several times, but these visits were canceled. Iraq's policy towards Syria remains unclear. Where does the PUK (Patriotic Union of Kurdistan) see itself in this context?

Qubad Talabani: The entire world is watching right now—whether it’s Western countries, Russia, Israel, the United States, Iraq, Iran, and many other countries. It is true that Iraq has extended a friendly and assisting hand to Syria, and it is also true that most of what the Syrian leadership has stated so far has been positive—intended to ease fears and anxieties. However, implementation is what really matters. One of the key things people are watching is whether today’s Syria is different from the Syria of the past. It is about coexistence and governance, especially regarding the role of the Kurds in Syria.

I believe people mistakenly think that because Iran has suffered setbacks in Gaza, Lebanon, and Syria, this signals the end of Iran—that it will cease to exist and the Iranian front has been entirely defeated. However, like many issues in this region, it is not so black and white. Iran is a powerful country with strong institutions. It has the capacity to implement wise policies and has ruled for thousands of years with significant experience. I believe it is far too early for people to claim that what has happened marks the end of Iran.

Shaho Amin: Returning to the issue of West Kurdistan (Rojava), where many have given their lives to protect their land in the fight against ISIS, the new Syrian government does not acknowledge them. How can you support West Kurdistan?

Qubad Talabani: We are always in contact with them, and we hope that they can play a role in the new Syria, similar to the role that Mr. Masoud Barzani and Mam Jalal played in Baghdad, advocating for and securing the rights of Kurds in Iraq. We must make every effort, alongside our brothers and sisters in Rojava and with the help of foreign and regional actors, to strengthen the position of the Kurds in Syria. This requires efforts from multiple fronts.

First, we have always maintained communication with [Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) commander] Mazloum Abdi, encouraging him to move towards Damascus. But we must ensure that he has a place in Damascus and that his route is protected until he reaches it. This is why we constantly communicate with our Turkish counterparts. If you want Syrian Kurds to be truly a part of Syria, you must allow them to engage politically and be active in Syria. However, if they are continuously under threat on their way, they will be unable to move freely. It would be a huge mistake for the new Syria to marginalize the Kurds. Without the Kurds, Syria will never become a peaceful nation or succeed as a country.

Shaho Amin: How is your relationship with Turkey? Recently, the PUK met with some Turkish officials. Why is the Turkish flight ban on Sulaimani airport still in place?

Qubad Talabani: Undoubtedly, the relationship between Turkey and the PUK is longstanding. It is a relationship that was built by Mam Jalal [Talabani], who laid its foundation and strengthened it. If you remember, in 2008, 200,000 Turkish soldiers were stationed on the Ibrahim Khalil border, preparing to enter. At that time, Mr. Masoud [Barzani] went to the border and said, "You must pass over my dead body" if you intend to enter.

The situation was very tense. Mam Jalal held a meeting in Baghdad with both a Kurd and a Turk, which eased the tensions and helped normalize the situation somewhat. So, if there is any cooling of relations between the PUK and Turkey, I believe that it will not be long before things improve, as both sides have made efforts to mend relations. Some of the tensions were caused by misunderstandings, and some were due to the internal challenges the PUK has faced since 2012. Over the last couple of years, the PUK has been able to stabilize and unify its stance and policies. During this period, the PUK may not have had the capacity to focus on strategic issues outside the Kurdistan Region due to internal crises and political differences.

Now, relations between Turkey and the PUK are improving. We must continue our efforts to convince Ankara that Sulaimani is not Turkey’s enemy and should not be treated as such. Sulaimani is not a threat to Turkey’s national security, and it is unfair for Turkey to punish Sulaimani as if it were an adversary. While the PUK may have a different political stance on the Kurdish issue in Turkey compared to the Turkish government, there is no reason why citizens of Sulaimani should be forced to travel from Erbil or Kirkuk airports instead of Sulaimani International Airport. They will travel anyway, but it causes them unnecessary inconvenience and additional costs.

Turkey may also be losing out on potential opportunities. Many travelers would have preferred to fly directly from Sulaimani to Turkey, and many investors might have wanted to visit Turkey as well. These are opportunities Turkey has lost due to the decision to impose a ban on Sulaimani International Airport.

We hope that Turkey will review this decision, and in all our discussions, we have urged them to reconsider. Additionally, we have consistently criticized the federal government for not doing enough to defend us in this case. If I can make a complaint, it is that it should not just be me or the KRG (Kurdistan Regional Government) pushing for the reopening of Sulaimani International Airport. Other people within the KRG should also continuously advocate for the reopening of this important airport in the Kurdistan Region.

Shaho Amin: Today, there is an expectation of good news, specifically the message of peace from [the leader of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK)] Abdullah Öcalan. Many PKK fighters have weapons in the Kurdistan Region. What will happen to them if Öcalan’s message is to lay down arms?

Qubad Talabani: We are all awaiting this message. As you know, a while ago, an important delegation from the [pro-Kurdish Peoples’ Democratic Party (HDP)] visited Öcalan at Imralı prison, then traveled to the Kurdistan Region, where they held meetings with Kurdish leaders and officials in Erbil and Sulaimani. During those meetings, we expressed our support for any process that may lead to the end of the [PKK-Turkey] conflict, which could potentially bring peace to Turkey and provide a framework for resolving the issue between the Turkish and Kurdish peoples in Turkey. If Mr. Öcalan delivers his message today, I believe it will be the first step toward ending the conflict and, eventually, building peace and creating an environment for coexistence.

Shaho Amin: What did the HDP delegation tell you?

Qubad Talabani: They asked for our support in this peace process and sought our opinions on the matter. One of the reasons for their visit to the Kurdistan Region was to understand the perspectives and opinions of all sides. In Turkey, they had a successful tour, gathering the opinions of various parties. They told us that the vast majority of parties were positive and supportive of achieving peace and ending the conflict. Later, they felt it was important to come to Kurdistan to listen to the views of the main political parties here.

As I mentioned earlier, we expressed our full support for the process and our readiness to assist in any way needed to end the conflict, build peace, and create an environment conducive to coexistence.